Artificial Intelligence changes legal practice landscape

Show transcript

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welcome back so if you ever wondered how

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far and wide technology in the digital

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landscape can stretch well this

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discussion really is for you AI is being

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introduced in legal practices the

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University of Johannesburg is advancing

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in its legal education with the launch

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of its innovative virtual reality

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courtroom game at the same time an AI

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powered lawyer has recently launched in

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South Africa my AI lawyer as it's called

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was designed by legal interact and uh

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and tax to provide uh ordinary citizens

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with easy access to Legal knowledge and

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Justice so how exactly does all of this

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Innovation work let's bring in associate

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professor and head over the department

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of private law at the faculty of law at

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ugj um who is of course Professor

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Michelle fek and then we're also joined

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by Raphael seagull who is the founder of

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my AI lawyer guys a good morning to you

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and thank you so much for joining us I

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was saying just before we went on air

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that the two of you don't know each and

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obviously of working on these

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initiatives uh separately but I said I

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think this is a match made inad of

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Heaven I might just be playing um career

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Cupid right now but tell us about uh

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your Innovations if you'll allow me Prof

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I'll let you start um what is it that

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you guys have been up to there at

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UJ thanks so much and yes it's a very

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exciting time here at the University of

1:22

Johannesburg um so we've just recently

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on the last week Friday on the 19th of

1:28

July launched the virtual reality

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courtroom game at the University of

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Johannesburg now what really makes this

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quite special is that it was a

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collaborative effort between the faculty

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of law and the Johannesburg business

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school specifically the grit lab with

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Prof abaj Abola so what we've done there

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is we've taken uh the concept of

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gamification to assist us in

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transferring critical skills to our law

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students specifically Al uh problem

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solving skills and and a holistic

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approach now the virtual Port game

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really does integrate different levels

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of um study as well as the different

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levels or different areas disciplines

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within the law so creating again like

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I've said this holistic approach so very

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exciting time and we are very excited to

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see where this project is going from

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here okay I'm going to stay with you

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profen X so you can paint a picture I

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mean I think of uh virtual reality for

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instance and I imagine so I'm trying to

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understand the physical manifestation of

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what this project would look like right

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so are we wearing the VR goggles um

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explain the experience for the user if

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you can as briefly um as you can yes yes

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thank you and um so yes it is a virtual

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reality so if you think about the VR

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goggles and the handsets uh you would be

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fully immersed within the game so you

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start off um getting welcomed into to A

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A office a law office where you now meet

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your client and from there you then

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progress in this game to the actual

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court itself so you allow you have this

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ability to not only look but interact

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walk through the court really um engage

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in that in that space where a lot of

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students may not always have access to

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court and those experiences so we do

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have and the main thrust is the the

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actual virtual reality with a goggle

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yeah goggles but we've also Al developed

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through Prof abaja the 3D uh vers

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version that you can also do on the

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computer if you don't have the the

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goggles yeah very fascinating right okay

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rafhael let me come to you because also

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exciting project that you're working on

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a AI lawyer now I think this is quite

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exciting because I might be um one of

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those silly people that ask chat GPT

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existential questions but you've

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actually uh gotten AI to answer real

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questions absolutely absolutely and and

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um I think just in terms of of the work

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we do um legal interact has always been

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involved in Building Solutions for law

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firms and over time we really wanted to

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uh focus on you know just infusing AI

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into our Solutions and in that journey

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of of building of of building AI in we

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kind of saw the opportunity to build an

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access to Justice platform um and so we

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started to curate content into um the AI

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engine and I think that's really

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important is that when you asking chat

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GPT that information that's just a

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central that's just a central set of

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content that's you know not South

4:40

African curator it's not really our

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legislation not our regulation not and

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so we spending lots and lots of time

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making sure that the content that we

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that we that we're providing is is our

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is our is our legislation our labor acts

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our basic condition of employment so so

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so that's very important we spend we

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spend um every week we're going through

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through updated legislation and we're

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bringing it in and then I think just the

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second the second point is um we it's

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available both on the web um my a lawyer

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and it's available on WhatsApp so I mean

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94% of South Africans are available on

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on on WhatsApp we wanted to make it

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completely available and and and we

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wanted to make pervasive so it's so it's

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digital when you want it and human when

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you need it it was rarely um you know

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it's not it's not just an AI play it's

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it's it's a human in the loop play um

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and we know that there's a there's a

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there's a crisis in getting um this

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content into the hands of people we also

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are very aware that if we can if we can

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get information into the hands of people

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who need it we think that um these the

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number of disputes that that are that

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are going out will probably probably be

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reduced so so that was a big big part of

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it make it make it accessible make it

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accurate and make it easy to to

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understand um when you're asking when

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you're asking those questions I think

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the other part of it is it's not just

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about getting a a on it it's it has

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semantic understanding so it can it

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deeply understands um the complexity of

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the question um and it has a and it has

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a and it has an a sense of empathy when

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you when you're when you're asking a

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question I think you know one of the

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things we wanted to make sure is that

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when someone's asking the AI lawyer a

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question it's not that you're talking to

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an AI engine that there is no sense of

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feeling um the very very uh the most

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important thing for us was to build in a

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level of empathy and to build in a level

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of companionship and our partners in the

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process legal and tax were were emphatic

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that um you know we've got to make

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people feel like they can really be

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comfortable so so we wanted to let them

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have this opportunity but not only is it

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that you're talking to WhatsApp you have

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an option when you're on WhatsApp that

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you can push a button and you'll get a

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curated answer to the question and it

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will email it to you but if you want you

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can connect to the human lawy and we

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think that's really empowering that's

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incredible right and and such an

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exciting time and I I'm just trying to

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imagine what that would mean for um you

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know possible bottlenecks in the justice

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system but that's another discussion

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altogether um I want to do this though

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um I'm curious rapael about you know

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just how far you've gone out with the AI

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lawyer and also just the kind of

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questions that South Africans are asking

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so um you know what are the biggest I

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suppose legal issues that are being

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raised by South Africans that are that

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they are able to put on a on a AI uh

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program for instance it's fascinating we

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have had you know the man in the street

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is definitely he's AI enabled he is not

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scared of AI they need help and we've

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had thousands and thousands of questions

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we are we are very very proud of how

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we've been able to democratize um access

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to Justice through through this platform

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um most of the questions coming through

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are a around labor it's primarily around

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labor right um there's a lot of stuff

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around matrimonial um H just you know

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house to householders um disputes and

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that's about that's about 50 to 60% of

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of of what we see coming through uh and

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then there's all the peripheral kind of

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stuff that that that's that's um coming

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through the system but it's really a lot

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around around labor I think the one

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thing um that we that we are really

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proud of is we've just won a Microsoft

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Global award for um for being the

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inclusion change maker so I think

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congratulations Microsoft

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beautiful thank you thank you and I

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think you know just in terms of of the

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opportunity to impact Society what we're

8:57

doing what the prof's doing I think

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these are going to be material change

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makers to uh creating a just Society to

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creating a better Society for South

9:06

Africans and um you know people on the

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street our fellow South Africans they're

9:11

using these tools and we seeing it we

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have had literally 880,000 questions

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pouring through our system so we really

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are excited about where we're going and

9:20

we're at the beginning we're a year entt

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yeah just lastly before um and obviously

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what I want to do from the both of you

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is get details where people can you know

9:28

get uh get get um my AI lawyer and also

9:32

um the the the virtual courtroom um but

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I think this is really interesting

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you've got the news yesterday coming out

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from the president that um chief justice

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Mand Samaya will be taking over the

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position of um chief justice um and

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there is of course the responsibility

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that uh she has many have said that look

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she really needs to improve on ICT and

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uh Digi digitization or digitalization

9:56

of the justice system words of advice

9:59

Prof I think I'll give that to you right

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on on the urgency and how she can go

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about doing

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that yeah thanks thanks I think it is a

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urgent issue uh if you start looking at

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some of the challenges that uh the legal

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fraternity is experiencing especially

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with the Advent of of chat GPT uh a lot

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of lawyers are becoming U getting into

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trouble uh internationally on using cat

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gbt um so so there is not only a need

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for

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digital skills in this sense but also

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digital ethical skills if I can put it

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that way understanding what the tool is

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what is its limitation um and then when

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is it appropriate to use it uh I do

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think these tools are useful and they

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have a place within law um but I do

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think that we need urgent uh engagement

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as to how do we use these tools as as

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lawyers and then also as individuals

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that aren't trained in in the law um so

10:59

there are various guidelines that have

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already been published internationally

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uh from court systems guiding uh a

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lawyers on this so there there is some

11:09

International um precedent that can be

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adopted for South African context right

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so the so so I would I would advise that

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that's maybe something to look at what

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are the best practices that are

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currently being engaged in at at an

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international space yeah but then

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adopting that to SOS specific uh content

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okay um and Prof Before I Let You Go how

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do we get our hands on the virtual

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reality courtroom game so they are

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current it's currently for u.j but uh we

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are looking at expanding that so if

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there are any queries uh they are

11:42

welcome to come through on the u.j

11:45

website and then uh just engage with me

11:48

my details are on the website and then

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we can we can take it from there okay

11:52

great stuff really interesting work and

11:54

Raphael um my AI lawyer can I give you

11:58

the number you can go into WhatsApp it's

12:00

as easy as this you go uh plus 27

12:05

71

12:07

526

12:10

8527 and you add it into your WhatsApp

12:13

you don't have to say hello just say Ai

12:16

and Robin will kick in and she's ready

12:18

to answer your questions you have four

12:21

listen I'm G to ask you to give us that

12:22

number again I'm going to ask you to

12:23

give us that number again yeah go ahead

12:25

please plus 27 yeah 71 uh-huh 526 mhm

12:33

8527 okay great stuff I've got it and

12:37

you type AI otherwise go to my AI

12:40

lawyer. Tech yeah and there's a link

12:44

there and you'll see uh you can pick it

12:46

up from there okay